Archive through June 19, 2025
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Non-Game Discussions: Real-World Military: Archive through June 19, 2025
By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:57 pm: Edit

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You mean like the IRA and then the Real IRA?

Was the Troubles not enough?

And now we have Terrorists going 'free' and Army members being Prosecuted.

Precisely. It's unjust, backwards, and crazy - which is precisely my point. Terrorists should not go free and those that protect us from terrorists should not be prosecuted - except in the case of egregious war crimes.

I would expect the UK to tolerate acts of terror and violence by the "Real IRA" as much as I expect Israel to tolerate acts of terror and violence by Hamas.


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On the rest - I can only assume you have chosen to ignore the evidence to show Israel has done things, which should never have happened.

It is disingenuous to assume that I chose to ignore such incidences. Indirectly, I already addressed them. Specifically, your examples are *precisely* the examples of anecdotal reasoning I denounce. I would be surprised if you couldn't find atrocities committed by SOME Israelis, but such argumentation is not persuasive or correct.

This reasoning is a classic example of the hasty reasoning logical fallacy. You are drawing a general conclusion from two specific examples out of context from the whole situation. You could throw in a few more, but unless you analyze the situation holistically - from both sides perspectives - you will come to the wrong conclusion.

For example, note that you cite 30 deaths that were covered up. Compare that to 1000+ that were deliberate acts of state-sanctioned murder.

Strategically, Hamas' publicly stated goal is the destruction of Israel. Israel's stated goal is to have a secure Jewish state. Hamas publicly praises, and rewards, acts of murder against civilians. Israel *tries* to avoid civilian deaths. Hamas hides among helpless civilians and sallies forth to attack Jewish civilians. The worst Israel can be accused of is 1) covering up a few horrible mistakes, 2) a few individuals committing acts that are war crimes, and 3) creating conditions for disease and famine by destroying infrastructure.

However, it is precisely Hamas that provokes condition 3 by insisting on shooting from hospital rooms and people's homes. It is unreasonable to expect Israel to just sit there and let themselves be human targets just because the enemy hides among civilians.

The cowards, dastards, and criminals here are Hamas, plain and simple. If there are Israeli military members that commit war crimes, then let them be prosecuted. However, their individual acts do not change the balance of moral reasoning that is applied to public state policies, or to the moral reasoning that is applied to determine whom - if anyone - to help.

Everything would change if Hamas simply - and honestly gave up its hate and decided to renounce the destruction of Israel. The whole West bank would be a very different place - a better place. But instead, Hamas chooses to play its vile games of murderous deceit and propaganda - and too many in the West are suckered into believing them.

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Yes, Israel is generally trying to keep Civilian deaths low - but it's clear, something more than 'accidents' does happen - and so if you are on the receiving end of that - what can you do?

In the short term, nothing. I would be a victim of an unjust act. Which would make me very, very angry. I might even take up arms against the perpetrator.

However, I would NEVER use my anger as an excuse to pour fire from my assault rifle into a crowd of civilians, kidnap them, and worse. I would rather be killed unjustly myself. I'm actually dead serious about that statement.

If I were an Israeli military commander or a prominent politician, I would insist on prosecuting war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. However, they would have to be just that - war crimes, which are different in kind and intrinsically more heinous than just the ordinary killing and accidental death that happens in war.

What I don't understand is how you can compare some coverups and limited wrongdoing on an individual level to Hamas' well-documented brutal, systemic acts of evil.

I also do not understand how or why you think Israel should tolerate ongoing atrocities against its people.

I do not understand why anyone would think that it's not obvious that Hamas WANTS Israel to invade and thereby create the humanitarian disaster - precisely to yank the hearts of ignorant Westerners and thereby bring pressure to bear against Israel.

Explain to me. Explain to me what, exactly Israel should do in response to Hamas' acts.

Talk to them? Don't be disingenuous. Hamas has had ample opportunity to come to the table to talk, and has NEVER given up its main platform of the destruction of Israel.

Send in special forces teams to kill their violent leaders? That's precisely what Israel has been doing for years. Decades. And yet, we have October 7, 2023 and an endless intermittent barrage of rockets.

So. What are you going to do? Send in the army to secure the land? Well, that's what Israel did. But now the enemy is shooting you from within soft civilian targets, deliberately using them as meat shields.

What are you going to do, Paul? I'm asking a serious question. What are you going to do? You are now the PM of Israel. What will you do in the face of an enemy who places no value on human life - either theirs or yours?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:04 pm: Edit

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So your saying it would be better for Palestinians to accept Israel will make mistakes AND be allowed to lie to get away with it?

. This statement reminds me of the parable of criticizing the mote in another's (Israel's ) eye when there's a plank in your own (Hamas') eye.

Let's admit, for the sake of argument, that everything you say about Israel's acts is 100% true *and* state-sanctioned. It doesn't come close to comparing to Hamas' atrocities. On the balance, as you already admitted in an earlier post, Israel is trying to avoid civilian deaths. In view of the fact that Hamas is deliberately trying to cause them, the degrees of evil are simply not comparable morally speaking.

It is true that injustice is, by definition, unjust. However, that does not compel the conclusion that Israel is in the wrong, nor does it compel the conclusion that Israel's overall strategy of war is unjust.

Besides, it is Hamas themselves that teach their own children to hate. That has far more effect than a few acts of injustice committed by Israel.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:08 pm: Edit

The notion that Israel is committing genocide is evil propaganda and the worst form of psychological manipulation. It is a malicious lie, spread for the specific and scurrilous purpose of undermining public support for Israel so that Israel and the Jews therein may be destroyed.

If Israel were committing genocide, the Palestinians would already all be dead. Period. All of them.

Do the Palestinians live in horrible conditions and face starvation and disease? Yes. But Israel allows international aid to help prevent that, despite a few incidents where specific convoys were stopped for military reasons.

The Romans. Now, they knew how to commit genocide. They walked into Israel and killed *everyone*. Then, they salted the ground.

What is Israel is doing in Gaza is not even close to that.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Paul is always pulling stuff out of context and then giving half of the information (the half that supports his dubious case).

Remember that he went on and on and on about some Palestinian West Bank kid who was killed by an Israeli machinegun when he had done nothing particularly wrong. Paul, of course, didn't mention that the kid who was killed was standing next to a Palestinian kid who had just attacked the Israeli tank that fired the machinegun which killed both kids. One who deserved to get killed and was, and one who was (by his own choice) in the wrong place at the wrong time. Machineguns aren't that accurate when you've got about one second to fire or get killed, and if you spent the day following your friend around as he did various illegal things your death was unfortunate but you were not entirely without fault. If someone tries to kill me and I sent five bullets in his general direction, it's the nature of the beast that every now and then one of those bullets is going to hit an innocent person. Since the alternative is to let the guilty person murder you, self-defense overrules innocent bystander.

There are other cases of Howard's half truths (fewer now that we banned him from quoting the Guardian) but this is one that really annoyed me as he was deliberately deceptive in his reporting of the incident.

I suppose it's Hitler's fault that US Navy Seaman Jones was killed when the Hindenburg crashed on top of him (and a bunch of other people). Obviously, we should have immediately declared war on Germany and forced the UK to join us in the fight against evil.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Paul, "may have used ambulances"?

If you want to be even handed, why not check the facts? And why post about this without first checking to what extent Hamas is to blame?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Ted

We probably are starting to go round in circles...but as two answers to your questions

1) Google or other Search Engine "King David Hotel Bombing"' - if a terrorirst act worked then, will it work now?

(The point is, if Israel had fallen as nation in the initial 1948 War, the pre-1948 bombings would have been considered a Terrorist Activity rather than both that used and Freedom Fighters).

The relevant point from my point of view - is that my Wife (financee back in 2005) was in London on 7/7 (and it's the 20th Anniversary next monnth) and so all Terrorist acts are not acceptable to me.

2) OK - I am now the Isreali PM. What would I do?

Publically announce 'who you think Hamas leaders are' (Leaflets with pictures etc dropped on mass across Gaza - and offer rewards to help find them and others in Hamas) - and given them 24 hours to surrender to be charged in a court of law.

If they don't surrender - kill those that you can kill easily and give 24 more hours notice that if they don't surrender, they will be killed , even if Civlians or there family are there.

Repeat - until everyone you think was either a Leader or inveolved in the Hamas attack on Israel is killed or has surrendered (and they do receive a fair trial).

Pubclically then announce - Gaza - you have two choices - repeat what you did with Hamas - and we will see you again in 10-15 years time whe you attack us again - or - cease your attacks, re-educate your peolpe and we can live as neighbours.

(Yes, money would be needed from the Gulf states and others to make Gaza an economically working nation - and the same would be needed in the West Bank)

But give them a choice - Proseprity and a life for you for and your family - or the same.

Hamas ceases to exist - the guilty are charged and dealt with - or are dead. I have protected my nation.

Yes, some innocent people will die - but with less troops on the ground and more smart weapons being used - the numbers will hopefully be less than what has occured.

Gaza gets a new choice - and hopefully they will make the right choice.

If they choose 'the same again' - the World is probably a different place in 10-15 years time - and so 'salting the earth in Gaza' will be more acceptable in the future, than it is today.

But, I'll be recorded in History as the Evil Man who destroyed a Nation, to protect my Nation but hopefully the headline would be 'he gave them a chance - and they made the wrong choice, so he indirectly killed those that didn't leave'.

OK?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Not ignoring anyone - will reply to the 5.04 and later messages in the morning - off to bed!

(My most recent and long reply to Ted was done and I just noticed the newer messages :) )

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 06:02 pm: Edit

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The relevant point from my point of view - is that my Wife (financee back in 2005) was in London on 7/7 (and it's the 20th Anniversary next monnth) and so all Terrorist acts are not acceptable to me.

On this, we agree.

Now put yourself and your family in Israel - and you're part of a crowd being assaulted by dozens of men with automatic weapons.

Will you continue to tolerate such acts? Of course not. But your proposals of targeted killings haven't worked. Your proposals all assume the enemy values human life.

Keep in mind you're dealing with people whose families are paid well if they die while committing their atrocities.

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Publically announce 'who you think Hamas leaders are' (Leaflets with pictures etc dropped on mass across Gaza - and offer rewards to help find them and others in Hamas) - and given them 24 hours to surrender to be charged in a court of law.

If they don't surrender - kill those that you can kill easily and give 24 more hours notice that if they don't surrender, they will be killed , even if Civlians or there family are there.

Repeat - until everyone you think was either a Leader or inveolved in the Hamas attack on Israel is killed or has surrendered (and they do receive a fair trial).

Tried over decades and failed.

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Pubclically then announce - Gaza - you have two choices - repeat what you did with Hamas - and we will see you again in 10-15 years time whe you attack us again - or - cease your attacks, re-educate your peolpe and we can live as neighbours.

Tried over decades and failed.

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But give them a choice - Proseprity and a life for you for and your family - or the same.

Tried over decades and failed. In fact, they get money from state actors like Iran precisely to attack Israel, so that's their monetary interest.

Paul, you are a good man with a good heart. However, your proposals have been tried and they have failed. Now what?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Carl the border corridor was put up later in the conflict. I suspect the real truth is that Egypt and other surrounding country would stop them. From entering.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I suppose it's Hitler's fault that US Navy Seaman Jones was killed when the Hindenburg crashed on top of him

By the standards being called out, it would actually be Roosevelt's fault, for withholding helium for German blimps....

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Given that the Hindenburg fire was the Aluminum oxide exterior coating catching fire, rather than the Hydrogen gas in the envelope cells, then no, you cannot blame Roosevelt.

It may be that U.S. Navy seaman Jones was more guilty of “Wrong place, Wrong time” than either Hitler or President Roosevelt.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 10:09 pm: Edit

The Iranian F-14 Tomcats which were shown being blown up were easy targets. You can see the before picture on google maps (or bing map) at 35°41'40.8"N 51°19'57.0"E. Obvious nothing more that relics. Perhaps the only working F-14 was seen at a air show in December.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 11:41 pm: Edit

The Iranians moved anything flyable to that base on the Afghan border, hoping to keep it out of reach. I would think a Tomahawk strike would be scheduled for Nimitz Day.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 12:09 am: Edit

Gregory, yeah Wikipedia says it was erected in 1971, and there is a similar barrier on the border to Egypt. Crossing them are meant to be impossible since the intent is to stop Hamas and other operators from entering Israel from Gaza, and Gaza from Egypt.

You are right that Egypt doesn't want the whole population to cross the border, neither does Israel. Those are the neighboring countries. The reason why varies of course. It would be destabilizing to Egypt to try absorb two million refugees, and who would be accused by everyone to do Israels bidding and facilitate a second nakba. To mention just that which first comes to my mind.

(If Israel were to try force the population to cross over to Egypt (after having demolished the barrier ofc) that is imo likely to be a cause for for war.)

So people are trapped in Gaza. Genocide? No, not really. Still, that they have constantly bombed the Gaza strip for two years soon, and never seems to stop is... Well. If they weren't the "baddies" before they becomes the "baddies" now.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 12:16 am: Edit

SVC, the Iranian air force are no better than second rate trainers compared to its neighbour's state of the art inventories. They are a money drain to keep flying. Best option is to leave them beef.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 02:51 am: Edit

OK- I don't think there was any initial "questions" - just more back and forth comments.

Only question I can see 'after then' is from Ted's 6.02.

I don't think a directed campaign to kill Hamas leaders has been done - outside the Mobile Pager attack (nothing else has been reported on in the UK) - and that operation is too far in the future for my plans.

My attack would be immediate and direct using Smart Weapons - a few missiles being filmed flying though windows might persuade some to surrender - and if they don't - they die.

It might take 3 months to get 99% of Hamas leadership (4 of 5 people targeted every night?) - but I think it should be possible.

With the bulk of the leadership dead (or in court) - hopefully the remaining leadership would then offer a proper ceasefire - and then the 2 options (Peace or repeat) can be agreed by Palestinians.

I would publiclaly state = one option will see Gaza destroyed the next time anythning is attempted - but I accept, I would go down in History as a mass murder.

On putting Soldiers on the ground - I would agree, that has been tried and failed.

'From my point of view' (as Israeli PM), I don't think I would attempt it - it risks more of my soliders and is likely to increase the number of innocent people who get caught in the Cross Fire etc.

So - publically annnoucing it, timescales and Smart Weapons would hopefully support my desire to minimise innocent casualties (but some peolpe will be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and those that do die, will be remembered in the maginificant 'Peace Treaty' document the death of Hamas allows Palestine and Isreael to sign).

If after all the above, it does fail - as SVC mentioned afew weeks ago - I think the only two options are

1) Death of Israel
2) Salt the Earth in Gaza now and accept the World will never forgive me.


As Israeli - I would go for option 2 - but only after stating as strong as I can - leave now (and provide financial compensation to people who do) - and kill everyone what remains within 1 mile of the border (or crosses back into that area later) - and Salt the Earth/destroy infrastucture across all of Gaza.

I would not be prepared to risk my nation to protect a nation which doesn't put it's peoples lives first in the list of nation priorities.

But the area formally called Gaza will no longer support life and hopefully it would allow my nation to be protected from that direction.

Hopefully, the People of Gaza would not force this on themselvves though.

OK?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 05:56 am: Edit

Carl, no Arab is ever going to think the Palestinians are doingIsrael’s bidding. That’s not even a fantasy. Instead, the Egyptians think that the Palestinian refugees are going to be disorderly and constantly riot and eventually try to take over the Cairo government.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 07:08 am: Edit

svc, I meant that if Egypt opened the border for Palestinian refugees then the Egyptian government would be in trouble. sorry if that was not clear.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 08:20 am: Edit

Paul, Gaza is far past the point where there is value in threatening anything for "next time". Things need to be done because of "this time".

If you aren't willing to destroy Hamas in response to the October 7 attacks, with an official death count of 1195, the lesson for Palestinians is to keep doing similar attacks.

With Hamas still existing, Israel has every justification to continue its action. And Mohammed Sinwar's body was found underneath a hospital. So to the extent that Israel kills Palestinian medical personnel, that's Hamas' fault, too.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 10:41 am: Edit

William - I partially agree.

Gaza is not Hamas though and Hamas is not Gaza.

If Israel killed every Hamas member - and a small number of civilians died too in achieving that aim - I think everyone would agree that would be a 'fair/correct' outcome'.

For it's evil acts - Hamas ceases to exist.

Gaza get to reset it's political agenda and so if your Children behave, they will have somewhere to live.

However, I think with a 'Salt the Earth Tactic', the other side needs to be aware that if they don't play ball - their nation will end.

Giving a clear warning would therefore seem the best thing to do and increases the chance the alternative option is selected? (Do you want the Carrot or Stick - it's 100% your choice, but you have to pick).

Not all Palestinians are Hamas (just like not all Israeli's in the West Bak are Settlers) - so should everryone be tared and feathered based on where they live?

In other words, give them a good reason to change - or leave - as the alternative is not good for them.

If they don't choose the right option - they then only have themselves to blame - and Gaza does then cease as a State.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 11:01 am: Edit

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I don't think a directed campaign to kill Hamas leaders has been done - outside the Mobile Pager attack (nothing else has been reported on in the UK) - and that operation is too far in the future for my plans.

Wrong. It has been tried for decades. It failed. Go look up the history yourself. Missile attacks. Special forces attacks. Again and again Hamas leaders have been killed. Your idea has been tried and it failed.

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other words, give them a good reason to change - or leave - as the alternative is not good for them.

If they don't choose the right option - they then only have themselves to blame - and Gaza does then cease as a State.

You just made my case.

They've had ample opportunity to change. They have not. They have had warning after warning after warning. Can you be so ignorant of history in this regard?

After October 7, when Hamas committed that horrendous war crime, Israel's tolerance had to come to an end.

In fact, Hamas counted on Israel's response. They wanted Israel to attack, so they could fight house to house and so that they could display the suffering of their own people to the world and trick gullible Westerners into falling for their crocodile tears -for the purpose of bringing Israel down. That is the level of their hate.

And so many people, here in the West, have given support to that evil organization, Hamas, just as they hoped.

I call bull. I say Hamas should fail and have the light of truth expose their deeds.

All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing. Let's not make it worse by being Hamas apologists.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 11:16 am: Edit

OK Ted - lets flip it.

Your a Gazan Doctor working in a Hospital - you have a modest living but don't have enough funds to emigrate

Hamas comes into your hospital and says 'do this or you and your family die'.

What do you do?

But lets be nicer.

Your the same Doctor - and you hate Hamas, you go to a few rallies and you know the names of 100 other Gazan people who equally hate Hamas, but Gazan Media is controled by Hamas and so the hatred of Hamas is kept in back street coffee shops.

You know several senior Doctors spoke out about Hamas - and was never seen again.

You do what you can though - leaking things to a friendly Egyption Journalist, knowing there is risk and your probably on a list of names somewhere. But fingers crossed, in time things will change.

Hamas then does the Brtual 7th October attacks - and your now stuck in the middle - several of your friends die in the Hospital you work in.

You don't have the funds to flee (lets assume if you have huge sums of money for the moment, you can bribe enough people to get you and your family out - I am sure it's possible.... for a very small number of the Gazan Elite - but at some point, the cost will exceed what anyone can pay, so if your there, you stay).

What do you do?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Paul,

One simply has to accept that not everyone killed in a war will be bad.

But trying to be "nice" to such people just results in more death in the long run.

The world has tried to help Palestinians for 70-odd years. UN schools, free food, rebuilding Gaza after they attack Israel and Gaza gets destroyed, you name it. I see ads on YouTube and Facebook right now asking me to help feed Gaza.

As I understand it, your plan is to threaten to be even nastier next time. But that's a plan for more death and destruction. Because if you go that route, there will be a next time, with Hamas not believing your threats.

Your plan is therefore crueler to innocent Palestinians than mine is.

If there is a flaw in that logic, I'd be interested to hear it. But I'm not interested in thinking about "humane" concerns that, if followed, will make things worse.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Quote:

You don't have the funds to flee (lets assume if you have huge sums of money for the moment, you can bribe enough people to get you and your family out - I am sure it's possible.... for a very small number of the Gazan Elite - but at some point, the cost will exceed what anyone can pay, so if your there, you stay).

What do you do?



The flaw in this argumentation is that you are drilling down to the individual, not addressing the systemic. Therefore, your moral analysis effectively results in the needs of the few outweighing the needs of the many. In other words, the injustice faced by your hypothetical doctor outweighs the injustice Israel faces by refraining from actually putting an end to mass slaughter of civilians. The example of your doctor simply doesn't compare.

Does your doctor face injustice? Most certainly. However, he also lives in a society that not only tolerates Hamas, but reaffirms it again and again. Like it or not, guilty or not, your doctor will suffer injustice as a result.

However, does that mean that the doctor's suffered injustice should prevent Israel from stopping Hamas from its murderous sprees? Should we continue to tolerate Hamas' evil?

I'll improve your argument. As a result of Israel's attack, far more Palestinians have died and have suffered than have Israelis have died and suffered as a result of Hamas' attacks. On the principle that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, we may conclude that Israel's attacks are disproportionately violent and therefore must stop. We may also conclude the Israel's attack is immoral.

However, this improved argument also suffers from logical flaws. First, it does not take into account the context that Israel has tried other solutions for decades, and they have all failed to stop Hamas' violence. Second, the argument denies the right of Israel to defend itself, implying that morally speaking the stronger party has the moral duty to allow himself to be harmed and killed - lest he cause greater harm to the enemy when he strikes back.

Such an argument is unreasonable. No sane government is going to let their citizens be murdered. Repeatedly.

Bear in mind that for decades Israel has repeatedly tried your other strategies. They have failed. You do not acknowledge this fact, but it is indeed a fact.

Therefore, Israel *MUST* do something radical to stop Hamas. Given past failures, the *only* way to stop Hamas is to go into Gaza, root them out one by one, and kill them.

Hamas gives no other negotiated alternative, and has stubbornly refused all negotiated settlement - except insomuch as to buy themselves time to breathe. The civilians that suffer as a result are victims of injustice, but it is injustice that Hamas brought upon their heads.

To state the proposition more simply: The right to self defense against a hostile nation trumps the individual rights of innocents living in that hostile nation when the defending nation exercises its right to self defense. The sole exception is that war crimes may not be permitted.

However, ordinary injustice - as terrible as it is - is a fact of war. The onus for that injustice is on the leaders of the aggressor nation, not on the nation that defends itself.

Note that German citizens suffered injustice when the Allies took WWII to Germany. However, no one on the Allied side considered that a legitimate reason to not invade and bomb German cities - not until Hitler was stopped. Same deal here.

So, let me flip your example and pose this question: Where all attempts at negotiated peace and surgical strikes have failed, and the enemy is only increasing the scale and violence of their attacks, is it reasonable to stand by and let them continue to harm you?

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, June 19, 2025 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Paul Howard:

Regarding, "Gaza is not Hamas though and Hamas is not Gaza."

While true, it is also true that Hamas had 17 years of pretty much unfettered control during which to indoctrinate the population in rank hatred. There is an entire generation of Gazans who have grown up with no coherent memory of a time when they weren't constantly being told that Israelis were illegitimate. Note, not being told that the state of Israel was illegitimate; Rather, being told that having Jews living in that part of the world was some sort of offense against the proper moral order of things. At a certain point, that level of indoctrination will cause people's beliefs and attitudes to change.

This is the BIG difference between Gaza and the West Bank. In the West Bank, there has never been this sort of systematic program to indoctrinate the Palestinian population into that sort of fanatical hatred.

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