I need to get around to writing the rule, and don't have time, but somebody wanted to start discussing the rule. I'm really not going to pay much attention to proposals and will draft the rule myself based on what NG ships need to do.

They might well be slower and that might well mean we'd have to do what we needed to do 15 years ago and create a move-5 or move-4 category rule and put some of the crappier ships (WE?) into it along with the NG ships.

Might be some restrictions on what you can do with the NG ships. For example, they might not be allowed out of their home provinces. But then, balance is an issue and if you add 20 NG ships to the Feds you have to let the Klingons use their NG ships for at least garrisons or blance goes out the window.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:54 am: Edit

Suggestion #1:

National Guard ships may not pursue other ships in a pursuit round

Suggestion #2:

National Guard ships are considered slow when retreating. They can only go speed ~25. LAV's can go ~25 also. They go speed 6. Isn't the 4PW have speed 6 ships?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

I would like to see NG ships assigned to planets like monitors, under all the MON restrictions.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:14 pm: Edit

I'd like NG ships to be activated like Mothballs.

Activated for 2EP for a SC-4, 3EP for a SC-3. With a limit of 2SC-4, 1SC-3 per turn.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Makes sense that the NG ships would act similar to monitors do in that they defend their planet only. Maybe if we want them a little different then monitors they can maneuver within their planets province so can react to enemy movements? Act like warships in all normal means except for restricted from leaving their starting planet/province?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit

SVC wrote the scenario with Klingon NG ships in Federation space during the invasion. (SH231?) so they shall have to be somewhat 'mobile' (or a select few to be released by conditions).

There also exists the NG Penal Cruiser which might serve as the Penal Ship during the 4PW scenarios.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Admittedly I have no prior knowledge on what NG ships are in 'historical' scenarios etc so all this is new to me. I'm curiuos to know more on what they are supposed to be =)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:35 pm: Edit

The NG ships are used for "not the front line" things. Piracy patrols and the last vestage of the planet's own non-fed military. The Klingons used some NG ships in rear area security and "pillaging" missions. So they went into Fed territory but not into the front line. Something like "cannot enter a hex with enemy units" will certainly be part of the rule but that still gives extra defenses to the invadee.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

I like that.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:42 pm: Edit

John, according to the SFB history, Fed National Guards were to defend planets and provinces, while Klingons served more with the ISF.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

How about a mix of both ideas. Say that each race has certain specific planets that have their own NG ship aasigned to them but that the player race can also have a set amount that function similar to police ship restrictions but are able to enter and control enemy provinces/planets. They are unable to operationally enter a hex with more then one enemy unit.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

"Fed National Guards were to defend planets and provinces, while Klingons served more with the ISF."

Not strictly true. The klingon naval reserve did do some rear area security missions inside Fed space, but both the fed and klingon national guards were never intended to be anything other than rear security. Once the front line moved from the border into fed territory (or kzinti territory or Hydran territory) then the Klingon rear area included a lot of non-Klingon geography. And since the Klingons knew they would be the attacker their NR units were trained and intended to be used in fed territory but not in the front line. Not all of them, but some of them.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Another limitation that you could put on such ships is that they have no value for pin counts.

Would it be possible (It might take two sets of counters for these ships.) to give different costs for using the ships, based on their mission? The rationale for this would be that "stay at home" ships would have very different supply and training requirements than those that are used for missions "abroad".

These ships, however they're envisioned, are almost guaranteed to provide an addition to the defending player. In theory, both sides as the game goes on will be defender and attacker, but I'm not sure that I'd believe the situation is symmetrical when you factor in the time-based elements of F&E like exhaustion and higher COMPOTS as the war goes on.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Here is some data from R8 for those who haven't seen it.

National Guard Ships: These are Early Years warships converted to modern (General War Era) technology and used by local defense and military reserve units. One little-known fact about the true warships of the Star Fleet Universe is that (unlike wet navy warships of 2004) they could not afford the food and other consumables needed to carry around hundreds of new recruits who would try to learn their jobs (as well as carrying dozens of instructors to teach them). Most crewmen came to the various star fleets fully trained, allowing crews to be much smaller on starships than on wet navy warships of three centuries earlier. Those crewmen were trained in the reserve and National Guard units.
The following rules apply to National Guard, Local Defense, and Military Reserve ships.
Transporters: Operate normally (five hexes range).
Tractor Beams: Operate normally (three hexes range).
Overloads: Heavy weapons on national guard ships can be overloaded, and can use all normal rules applicable to them as if they were general war units.
Probe Launchers: The probe launchers carry standard probes as given in (G5.0), but carry fewer of them.
Seeking Weapons: Ships have the normal seeking weapon control abilities, i.e., up to six if armed with seeking weapons, and out to 35 hexes range.
Electronic Warfare: Can generate and use up to six points of EW.

(R2.116) NATIONAL GUARD CRUISER (GCA): These ships were updated versions of the YCA-class. All of them were decades old in the General War, but served with distinction before, during, and sometimes after that conflict. There were never more than 10 of these ships, and (due to some being mothballed or undergoing maintenance, it was unusual for more than eight to be in active service. Each major member planet (Earth, Mars, Vulcan, Andoria, Rigel, Cygnus, Arcturia, Alpha-Centari.) was allocated one of these cruisers as the flagship of their National Guard. Some of these ships were assigned to duty in areas away from the home planet (and paid for by the Federation because the home planet did not want to pay for it to guard their home planet).
These ships had many duties, including defense of the home world, training personnel for duty with Star Fleet or membership in the Star Fleet Reserve (trained personnel who could be called to duty to crew the mothballed ships and new construction), and enhancing the prestige of the home world. When the home world established a new colony somewhere, the National Guard flagship was often dispatched (loaded with planetary officials) to "show the flag".
In wartime, these ships formed a vital part of Star Fleet, covering the Gorn borders, patrolling the off-map region, and dealing with the space monsters who hadn’t noticed a war going on. One attempt to use a squadron of three of these ships in a battle against the Klingons in September Y171 ended in disaster as the ships could not maneuver or fight with the first-line ships and became easy targets.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

(R2.117) NATIONAL GUARD DESTROYER (GDD): About 15 of these ships were in service in the various Federation National Guards in Y168, many as the flagships of member planets that could not afford (or did not want to pay for) a cruiser. All were used for home world defense, training, and prestige missions. One of these belonged to Orion and went neutral when the enclave did.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

(R2.118) NATIONAL GUARD FRIGATE (GFF): About 20 of these ships were in service in various National Guards in Y168. About half were the sole starship of a minor member planet while others were the second, or third, starship in the National Guard of a major member planet. All were used for home world defense, training, and prestige missions. Those assigned to major planets did rather more time away from their homeworlds (visiting colonies sponsored by those home worlds) than the cruisers did.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.





(R2.119) NATIONAL GUARD MEDIUM CARRIER (GVM): Three ships of this type existed, being owned by the National Guards of Earth (Gaia), Cygnus (Shreshalia), and Andoria (Cooperative). They were used for local defense and for pilot training. The Cygnan ship used locally-built fighters that were not the standard design for National Guard units. All operated with a single escort, although in wartime they were sometimes given a second escort (never a third).
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

YEAR ESCORT Earth, Andor
FIGHTERS Cygnan
FIGHTERS
Y168 GDE 12xF4 12xF104
Y170 GDE 12xF-8 12xF104J
Y175 GDE 12xF-16 12xF105S
Y178 GDE 12xF-16 12xA6D
Y183 GDE 12xF-16C 12xA6D

(R2.120) NATIONAL GUARD ESCORT (GDE): Three of these modified destroyers existed to escort the three National Guard carriers. Earth operated the Luna, Cygnus operated the Capra, while Andor operated the Pact.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

(R3.130) NAVAL RESERVE CRUISER (LD4): These ships were updated D4-class battlecruisers built prior to Y120. There were eight of them in service (some in mothballs were used for maintenance rotation), one with each of the four Dukes and one with each of the four systems of the Capital Complex. The four in the capital served as training and local defense ships, while the four assigned to the Dukes were used by their military lieutenant governors for inspections and some limited operations.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

(R3.131) NAVAL RESERVE CARRIER (LDV): Three ships of this type (technically, LD4V) were in service in Y168. Technically, they belonged to the Northern Reserve Fleet, Home Fleet, and Southern Reserve fleets for purposes of pilot training. Unlike the Federation (where National Guard units used their own fighters), the Klingons used standard fighters of the current types on these carriers in order for more effective training to take place. In fact, these ships often got the first prototypes of new fighter designs for testing purposes. When the fleets operating these three carriers deployed to the front, the carriers and their escorts remained at their home stations for pilot training. They were, sometimes, used as convoy escorts. Each had only one escort, but might be assigned a second escort from the fleet if the situation demanded it.
SSD and Counter are in Module R8.

YEAR ESCORTS FIGHTERS
167-Y168 LFE 10xZ-1
Y168-Y173 LFE 5xZ-1 & 5xZ-2 or 10xZ-2
Y173-Y177 LFE 10xZ-V
Y177-180 LFE 10xZ-Y
Y180-Y183 LFE 10xZ-YB
Y183+ LFE 10xZ-YC

SECURITY FORCE ORGANIZATION


Level ISF Government
National D6I, 3xF5P, 6xF5I 3x[ LD4V + LE4]
Capital E4C, 4xE4I 4xLD4
Regional F5I, E4C, 2xE4I LD4
Provincial G4, E3C/G2C LF4
Barony G2 or E3 APT
Mandate Skiffs PT

The Klingon Empire includes four regions, 26 counties, 134 baronies, and about 1,000 mandates. The capital complex counts as the 27th province, each of the four primary systems count as a barony. Some of the more densely populated baronies toward the center of the Empire (and in a few other regions) have extra police ships.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Fed NG: 8 CA, 3 CV, 15 DD, 3 DE, 20 FF (total 49 ships).

My rough guess of 100 ships for all four alliance races wouldn't be too far wrong, maybe even under.

Klingons 8 D4, 3 D4V, 26 LF4 (total 37 ships).

We'll worry about the others later but that's a good working scale.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:42 pm: Edit

National Guard rules....

Typical cruiser might be something like a 5-6 or a 4-6. Speed slower (not aux slow but slower than warships). Cannot enter hex of enemy ship. Probably does't count for pinning. With a few exceptions cannot leave the province they are deployed. Maybe other restrictions. A few ships (6-8) are sent to the gorn border fleet.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

If a crippled ship is 1/2 a ship for pin counts, I think that a NG ship should count as 1/2 also.

(203.54)

Any NG ship is faster than a crippled DN.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

I could see half a pin.