Archive through September 26, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS:
F&E Future Products (Far Term):
F&E Defensive Operations:
National Guard Ships:
Archive through September 26, 2004
John D.
The problem that I have with introducing a new drive class is that we now have to update other things (like GPD) to include the new info as well
SVC,
currently war eagles, and gorn carriers have the same F&E speed (overloaded tugs are slower, but I thought that they slowed to speed 3)
speed 4 is not a problem since we already have drives defined that operate at that speed and the ships in question origionally came equipped with those drives. as SVC said the fed CL can just be rules an unusual special case (as could the romulan ships)
John D, a monitor has the same firepower as a GW DN (if not more), which is considerably more tehn a NG DN will muster. it may be fully refitted, but it's still a EY design.
Overloaded Tugs are speed 3.
for the monitor, in SFB a monitor has lots of firepower, but very weak engines so if you get close to it it hurts you, but if you stay away it's much weaker.
in F&E this is abstracted and the lack ofmanuverability cuts down on it's firepower vs an attacking fleet, but against troopships attempting to do a ground assault it's SO powerful that it's just forbidden (the attacking troopships would be deopping their shields against a full DN overloaded alpha-strike, you just can't get captains willing to do that 
)
as for the speeds, those speeds were created based off of teh F&E speeds (to the great disagreement of many people becouse they differed from the 'classic' warp formula) If a new catagory of ships and speeds are created then that should update that list.
The Rom WE and other former Rom sublight ships should probably remain speed 6 ships. They are not using older warp engines like many older NG ships. The Rom received the latest warp tech from the Klingons after the Klingons had upgraded their production from older warp production to Middle Years tech. The old NG ship warp engine designs where 40+ years old when the Klingons sold warp tech (not warp engines) to the Rom. There wouldn't have been any good reason for the Rom to upgrade their sublight ships with 40 year old obsolete technology. There would have been good reasons for other races to keep the older warp engines on their older NG ships. They where building newer ones with the newer warp engines.
If that's the case, why would any Romulan ships (including their NG units) be limited in that kind of warp capacity?
General War ships which I feel should be "Move Class" 5:
- Rom WE and variants except KE - max SFB speed 21
- Rom SN and variants - max SFB speed 19
- Rom FAL - max SFB speed 21
- Gorn Emergency CVs - max SFB speed 25
- Tholian CAN - max SFB speed 25
- ISC NCA / NSC (when introduced) - max SFB speed 25
(There may be a few others I'm not thinking of...).
Note that the Romulan BH can maintain speed 29 (though it uses virtually all available power) and thus I wouldn't penalize it. The Kzinti CL and variants are limited to speed 28... so they are "safe" too.
The only problem arrives when working TGs and LTTs. If just using SFB max speed, many TGs / LTTs would "slow down" when carrying a pod. This is already in place with the over-loaded TGs, but I don't think anyone uses these except the Feds (I could be wrong).
As a final note: this is entirely my opinion. I am a strong proponent of this aspect of F&E and have been since first introduced to the game (when 2k was released). Obviously this could limit Romulan offenses, but a simple "King" refit to the SN and FAL could help (maybe replacing some of the at start ships with "King" variants).42
Ahmad, the older KR ships that are part of the Rom NG where older Klingon ships built with older warp tech. They would be just like all other NG ships.
There's no indication that the NG ships got new engines of any kind, so they really should have the same F&E move as EY ships (i.e., 4 -- assuming, of course, that GPD stuff is canonical for SFU).
If SVC is not averse to altering the old-series Roms, I would give all of them (except for BH/WH and KE) the same move as EY ships (4). Yes, they got GW-era warp tech from the Klinks, but I don't think there's anything wrong with assuming their first home-built designs were lower in performance. Their tac warp performance was certainly very much sub-par (just look at the ships' tac speeds, as Robert pointed out), so why not their strat warp, too?
As DGK points out, the Rom NG ships were just KR'd Klingon EY ships, so regardless of how WE/SN/etc. are handled, they should be move-4.
As far as employment of NG ships goes, I think some of Raider's suggestions go a bit too far. In SFB, NG ships have gotten all their electronics and support systems upgraded to modern standards -- that's why they can use normal EW, transporter, etc., rules instead of EY rules. Any of the C2 restrictions are hard to justify in SFB terms, then. They specifically can do things like operate heavy fighters and PFs (see Fed GVH and various LPFs), so I can't see why they couldn't have megafighters, too. LCVs are true carriers.
If we prohibit them from BGs, we have to prohibit Rom SNs, too, as at the tactical level a SN is pretty much a LFF (old, crappy FF given too little warp power but all the normal modern warship systems). (WEs already can't be in BGs...)
Restricting BIR may not be necessary, since the ships will have nerfed attack ratings. I sort of like the 5-7/3 idea for LCAs.
MON restrictions except for a few able to operate normally makes sense. Keep them all under the `can't enter hex with more than one enemy ship' POL restriction. No reserve movement makes sense. Add in movement of 4, supply range of 4, and retrograde of 4, and I'm just not sure anything more is needed.
Frankly, the restrictions on the NG ships -- other than those having to do with their slow speed -- are political in nature, not technical. They're crappy, but in SFB they mostly work just like any other warship that has too little warp power. (They're not all undergunned, either: a Fed GDD has 2PHOT+6PH-1. If only it could ever arm them...)
if you strictly go by the tactical speeds in SFB then you will have most 'war' classes qualifying as 'fast' ships
when this was pointed out (as we were discussing putting fast and X ships into F&E) SVC pointed out that the strategic speed of a ship had nothing to do with the tactical speed of the ship, you can make full strategic speeds with zero warp boxes as it's powered from the impulse engines (which explains how the 'sublight' ships could travel interstellar distances)
also if you did this then crippled ships would be slower then uncrippled ships (they lost a bunch of warp boxes after all in becoming crippled)
think about the mess that this opens up
the GPD warp speed charts were created from the F&E speeds, and in the process it defined exactly what strategic movement is, how it works, and how far you can go with it (~100 hexes/turn) when before F&E had stated that strategic speed was so fast that you could criss-cross the map several times if you needed to in a single turn.
David: We can always add a line to the chart.
Dlang: That's why I'm not suggesting, e.g., making crippled ships slower, or making prerefit Kzintis speed-5. I just think that there's a justification in treating the first-generation Rom ships with tacwarp as EY rather than GW tech. By the new-series and `King' refits, they got `up to speed' (so to speak) with the rest of the races. Because of Klingon help, though, they did it in a decade rather than several.
What about adding some NG ships that are “chained” to the off-map areas? This could go a long way in helping to balance the horribly biased off-map raid rule.
How would forcing the Alliance to keep some of its NG ships off-map help balance a rule that hurts the Alliance?
On the subject of movement rates, it has often been suggested for player campaigns that `war' ships should have a slower movement rate or shorter range than other ships (basically, treat them as range-4 EY ships). I'm pretty sure I know the answer (i.e., `Just say no') but is there any canon support for treating them this way?
A. No independent reaction allowed
SVC: dubious, maybe none outside of its province.
B. Cannot be part of a reserve fleet
SVC: maybe. Plausible but we may end up with 8 effects when 6 are enough.
C. Cannot be used in BGs except with same NG ships
SVC Maybe, ibid.
D. Are treated as speed three (or faster) slow-units -- especially in retreat (too old to keep up).
SVC: Probably speed 4 or 5. I haven't thought about it.
E. Can only retrograde three (or same number as above) hexes (too slow - less range).
SVC: maybe, ibid.
F. Limited Strat - same as a slow unit.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
G. Cannot raid or support a raid.
SVC: Yes.
H. Repairs by foreign race bases or FRD/PRDs cost 1 for 1 (old parts hard to come by). (But only a home PRD can repair at .5EP less -- they have the surplus parts).
SVC: maybe, ibid.
I. Half pin count.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
J. Must be part of a capital static defense force pile - but is not counted in the mobile/static split.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
K. If 50%+ of force is NG then it's BIR is -1.
SVC: Probably not worth the math.
L. Cannot withdraw (like slow unit?).
SVC: slow unit rule.
M. Can only draw supply from range (x).
SVC: maybe, ibid.
N. Cannot block retrograde/supply in adjacent hexes.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
O. Cannot be used as ad hocs/escorts/consorts to other standard ships.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
P. Can only use one hex of cloaked movement; cannot attempt to find cloaked units.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
Q. Cannot use command points, ADMs, MMGs, PTs, SWACs, Decoys, MEGAs, I-GCEs (old C2 facilities cannot support).
SVC: Probably not workable.
S. Cannot pursue (too slow) but could pursue slow units.
SVC: certainly, ibid.
T. Cannot use field repair (old parts not carried by repair standard ships/tugs).
SVC: maybe, ibid.
U. Cannot use CEDS (if it was some how available for NGs).
SVC: they do have carriers, and would use CEDs.
V. Cannot be part of a support echelon (limited C2).
SVC: Nah
W. Can be used to counter a raid in only its hex.
SVC: maybe, ibid.
re: Chucks Let V: The Kzi have the LCD (DB Guard Cruiser), and Guard Carriers that would certainly want to use the support echelon to work.
re: Speed 5 Rom WE's.
This will be a big blow to the Rom offensive T10. As all of a sudden 1/3 of their fleet is slower than the other 2/3s.
Scottt: An argument could be made that NG/EY ships in the support echelon (maybe free scout, too) can be directed on at 2:1, though, since they can't exactly flee if you send a CW squadron to hunt them down.
For simplicity sake, make the National Guard Ships share the same basic abilities and restrictions that apply to Early Years ships. This is in effect what they are. IRL, kind of like an old Armored Cruiser used for coastal patrol.
Oh, and if there is going to be any ovehaul of ship speeds, please increase the speed of X-Ships and possibly Fast Ships too. Realize that GW-era ships were 50% faster than their previous EY counterparts. A speed-7 only represents a 17% increase over speed-6 ships, and has little to no effect in gameplay. A 50% increase over speed-6 would be speed-9, but that scares the staff (I dont know why). At least Speed-8 would be 33% increase over speed-6, and it would make the F and X ships interesting to play.
With the advent of National Guard ships I see no reason for a race that is not at war to have "anti-piracy" patrols anymore since the national guard is doing that. Sorry, I don't have the rule number handy (it's one of the general scenario rules) as I don't have my rules with me today.
They really aren't early years ships, they are refitted early years ships and the same rules won't always apply.