In Y169 the Federation commissioned two very unusual ships for use by Starfleet. The Wolverine and Sable were designed based off of the ore carrier's in use at the time. Each received a flight deck comparable to an AuxCVL and used the massive amount of cargo space available for storing both fighters for delivery and munitions. The two ships were used to both ferry fighters to bases and carriers as well as operating as training ships.

The ONLY changes to an Ore Carrier SSD is the replacement of the front left cargo module with a carrier module.

Now the fun part. Klingon intelligence assessed these ships (based on internal Federation reporting practices) as carrying 4 fully operational squadrons. The Klingon "Assesment" indicated these ships had 2x16 pt warp engines and 4 carrier modules (effectively two sets of the modules used by an AuxCVA). The Klingons rightly guessed that the Feds were developing more advanced methods of fighter control. They greatly overestimated Federation success though. They believed the two ships would be used together as a base-busting force. This assesment came to the attention of the Klingon high command in Y171.

The Klingon model indicated the two ships would be able to work together and field an incredable 96 fighters between them. Having seen what a Hydran fleet could do with similar numbers the Klingons became very alarmed. In their assessment, the two comparatively inexpensive hulls would be able to function with a command ship, 4 escorts, and a trio (or more) of DDs to systematically strip the Klingo-Federation boarder of Klingon bases.

Theory did not match reality, but the presence of these two ships on the boarder (delivering fighters and conducting training) did dramatically increase tensions.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Interesting sounding ship, Mark. The only problem I see off hand is the name Wolverine...that's already taken, as the name of NCC 1602, a Fed CF. I know this only because I just finished the mini.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Mike,
I didn't know that. I was basing it off of the training CV that operated in Lake Michigan during WWII.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Hell, I didn't know it until I got to looking for a cool CF name. I do like the concept, though...when are you going to post an SSD?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 04:23 pm: Edit

I like the concept but would use the SAF movement rules to move the beasts -- thus the names:

USS Bison
USS Buffalo

It might be said that these Heavy Auxiliary Carriers (HAV) were able demonstrate and prove the concept of using the new command technology of the Federation Third Way. By using a single large hulled freighter only one carrier was needed for the proof of concept demo instead of two (most of which were needed for the war effort.) The beauty of building this ship is that if even the design concept failed the ship could still be used as a rear echelon conveyer or for in a crisis like home-world defense.

F&E Values: 2-7 (24) / 1-4 (12)
F&E Cost: 6+24F (limit 2 in service – Max)
Cannot use CVBG rules except within two hexes of Earth, as it would be too slow to employ elsewhere.

Might be a nice ship for CL25.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Mike,
I'm not sure if I'm going to. I'm thinking about sending it to ADB directly after I get some F&E input first.

The "Real" ships (in F&E terms) would be 0-4 (6) [18] / 0-2 (3) [9] hulls.

They would take up an AuxCVA slot AND the FCR slot. They have 12 ready fighters (6 factors) and 36 spares (18 FCR factors). As a "Fed only" deal these could be really cool.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Mark:

Sheer volume also adds to the defensive value as an LAV is a 1-4 (12) / 0-2 (6) unit. I would not go as far to say that it is twice that of a LAV but 7 seems reasonable. It would also have at least the offensive value of a LAV (with maybe an extra two G-racks added).

Chuck

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Chuck,
I've not worked out the SSD yet, so I'm not sure on the offensive abilities.

There are acutally two SSDs that would need to be considered; the one the Feds really used and the one Klingon Intelligence dreamed up after finding out some info about the two ships. For the later, I'm guessing it could be as potent as a 4-8 (24) hull, depending on how many guns get stuck on it.

I think this idea would dovetail in nicely with the establish history. The Feds are the only ones who built these things because they are the only ones who's empire is large enough to need them. For most empires a carrier or Aux would be fine taking a squadron from the home planet out to the boarder. For the Feds they'd need to use their limited strategic movement capacity to do this. My guess is it would be a lot cheaper to have a couple large freighters handling these tasks.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Mark,

If you like, I can do an SSD for you; just email me the specifics.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 06:19 pm: Edit

They could go into EcoWar (assuming I still like the idea after I actually read the topic).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Mark,

Just toying with this as an SSD, and I have a couple of questions and suggestions. The Fed AXCVA is greatly superior to this ship if it isn't refitted a bit more than simply adding the carrier mod. It is sorely lacking in shields, speed, and self protection. Given that, what I'd suggest to make it a bit more palatable would be these changes:

• Change the phaser 2 to a phaser 1,

• change the center hull forward to just forward hull,

• double the shields,

• change acceleration from 3 to 5,

• add a pair of G racks like the AXCVA has,

• give it double drone control,

• change the forward shuttle to a 2nd Btty,

• use two carrier mods instead of one.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 09:52 pm: Edit

A contrasting POV,

All of Mike's suggestions make sense for the Klingon mis-identified version (well the last is 4 pods in that case). For the actual Fed version, I'd suggest few, if any of the changes. The idea is that it is a simple unit for fighter transport, not intended for even the defensive combat role of an AxCVL/CVA. As such, as few changes as possible should be done. If there is such a thing for the F-OL, maybe upgrading it to "military" quality drives. Otherwise, not many (if any) changes. This also has the advantage of retaining the modularity in that any F-OL could be converted...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 09:54 pm: Edit

David, the problem with not making those changes is that it makes it a huge huge piece of expensive meat for any raider that catches it. You're talking the rough combat capability of an AuxCVL with an ecomoic of four or more times one.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 10:01 pm: Edit

I don't know that any pirate would go hunting an F-OL (who want 2000 tons of unprocessed rock to get rid of?). An enemy raider might, but would probably avoid it to avoid revealing its presence (either that or we're talking an E4 that can't hit anything other than lone ships). Of course once the enemy knows it exists, it will be a target, but at that point, it won't survive regardless of what it has without an escort/convoy. This is assuming it isn't deliberately put in battle, unlike an AxCVA (but with only an AxCVL's fighters and that much precious cargo, it isn't going into combat).

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 10:19 pm: Edit

David> I was refering to enemy naval units (though now that you mention it...I can see how _capturing_ it would be a juicy juicy surprise).

And while it may bot be intended for front-line duties, just head to a spot a few hundred parsecs back, meet with that carrier groups...oops, look at that DNL! With the fleet elements around, beefed up super-aux could possibly survive. With the improvements, it might actually make the raiding CW that finds it go elsewhere.

As it is, it's asking for the 12 fighters to get attrited and then to junked.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 08:04 am: Edit

The biggest reason for the changes I made echo Alex's sentiments. As a ferry for carriers, and a training vessel, it's going to be going places that aren't particularly safe. And in later years, you'd have it loaded up with new fighters like F-14's and F-15's. A bit more protection (in the form of better shields and 2 squadrons of defending fighters) makes it a much safer ferry ship. Imagine the outrage at SF Headquarters if the Orions grabbed one of these full of F-14's. And finding out they were being used wouldn't be that much of a stretch; knowing when and where precious cargo is shipping is what pirates do, after all.

I can finish up the two SSD's later today; one as Mark's original idea, and the other with the changes I proposed. Then we can look at them and let Mark decide what he wants to do.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Why not simply take a Large Aux-CV or an Aux-SCS (ACS) and do the following:

1) Add two heavy transport shuttle (HTS) skids forward of the CV/SCS pods with a Ph-1 refit

2) Add one HTS ducktail

3) Add two cargo pods aft of the CV or SCS pods

The unit was a Federation logistical unit intended to transport bombers, heavy fighters and fighters on one ship for planetary defense units. It was mistaken by Klingon intelligence as a test platform for the 3rd Way.

One (Big Mother?) was active on the Romulan front after the collapse of the Romulan frontier. It was busy building second line defenses while Tugs reushed supplies to the embattled Kzinti. This ship was later converted to the SCs configuration and transfered Klingon front after Heavy Fighter deployment in Y177. In the late war it operated with the logistical task force (LTF) deployed on the Klingon Frontier.

A second (Big Mother?) was considered for the Roluman front in Y180. Whether it was converted from that front's Aux-SCS, and lost during the retreat from Operation Remus, or was never operational is unclear due to Federation's wartime disinformation campaign.

The unit has three F&E special abilities

1) It can 'grow' a PDU on a planet or transport a PDU to a planet like a tug.

2) It can operate it's two operational fighter squadrons like a CVD or CVP.

3) It has 18 'attrition factors' that can support normal fighters, heavy fighters or bombers. These are paid for at a rate of 1 EP per 'attrition factor' during initial purchase and are replaced without cost when used.

These units count against Federation 'Heavy Aux' limits and may be converted from existing large Aux carriers (LAV) or ASC hulls.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Original CVAUX

Alternate CVAUX

Here are the two versions I made; the first is Marks original, the second is the one I suggested.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 08:35 pm: Edit

I like yours Mike. What is the launch rate? I expect VERY SLOW. Though you could say that the bay doors are so large that they allow double the launch and landing rate per bay. I would also suggest that landing AND launching from the same bay on the same impulse be disallowed.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 09:24 pm: Edit

I expect you're right; double launch rate, but no lauching/landing at the same time.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 10:58 pm: Edit

One thing wrong with the original, those deck crews also count as crew units (+6 crew)...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 03:56 am: Edit

One thing though is that for this ship to demo/use the Fed Third Way (FTW) it will need to be able to deploy 24 F&E factors of fighters (or 48 SFB fighters) on its own. Otherwise two LAVs could be used to test the FTW.

By Michael Davis (Pegasus) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Mark K, I like your concept for this ship. However, I felt it was too weak to defend itself from even a small warship so I came up with the ideal of replacing the two carrier pods with a base operations pod modified for carrier operations. On the positive side this results in an increase the number of phasers (+8 ph-1 & +2 ph-3), APRs (+4), shields (ops module has a base of 24 units + those of a large freighter), sensor (+1 box), scanner (+1), damage control (+1), boarding parties (+8), and hull (+2).

I also add six mech links to the tractors. Note, I am not adding a heavy fight squadron to the ship, I'm not trying to create a SCS. Instead I'm just giving the ship the capability to conduct carrier training with planet based squadron's. The link's can also be used to transport heavy fighter's from one base to another. Transported heavy fighters would have their crews, but would have to use the fighter squadrons deck crews( due to lack of space) for arming and refueling.

On the down side, the ships top speed would be reduced to 12 (this is with two 9 box engines, like those mentioned in the message previous to this). Movement cost would increase to 1.5, as well as corresponding EM and HET increases. Point Value would also increase, I'm estimating values of 180/120.

I don't have a website on which I can post the SSD, however if you would be interested in seeing the SSD let me know and I will e-mail it to you at the address listed in your profile. It's currently in .GIF format, if you need it in another format let me know and I'll convert it.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Mike,
For the "Alternate", could you work that up to be the "threat" version? The APR in the modules would be changed to Cargo. Then the engines would be doubled (giving it some real speed). Sheilds would be upped to 25.

Next, add on a "Weapons mount" to each pod. The forward pods would be LS/RS paired P-1s. The rear pods would be paired G-Racks.

An upgrade to the rear would be in order, especially as its been augmented with oversize engines.

The RA P-3 would become a pair of RA P-3. Doubling the Emer and Trac back there would make sence to.

The command module, now that its an aux, would need some work to. Most likely it would contain

2xBrdg
2xAux
2xTran
2xAPR
2xBtty
8xF Hull

The ship would probably wind up with about 60 crew, 16 BPs and 48 deck crews. Double seeking weapons control would be a minimum.

I could even see it having a pair of special sensors for drone control.

As a Klingon "Threat", does this sound like someones bad dream?