Terry, if the Federation takes Sovereignty seriously, why wouldn't they allow nonaggressive nonaligned members (i.e. not the Wasp People) to build whatever they want?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 08:58 pm: Edit

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based on data in GPD:Feds, I think the fact that a planet is not a member of the Federation does not imply that they are allowed a fleet of armed warships. Quite the opposite. The Federation asserts sovereignty over all the space within its borders. Some intelligent species are not allowed space travel at all (e.g. Wasp People). So no armed warships. I can see them buying strictly defensive units (ground bases, defsats, skiffs, maybe even auxiliary cruisers) from the Feds, but I can't see them being allowed any units capable of standing up to a Star Fleet ship.

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By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Dixon, Perhaps Warp tech relies on Shield tech to form the anti-matter chamber?

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 09:29 pm: Edit

The Bis'en are an independent feline race within UFP territory, but very friendly with the Federation.

I am working on background for them actually. But in case anyone cares, they did not have warp drive, tactical or otherwise, prior to being contacted. They have a (very) small fleet (a few auxiliary cruisers, a couple of police cutters, perhaps an obsolete frigate) essentially for local patrols. However, they purchase their ships and technology from the Federation, so no new Y-material with them.

When I created the Mantorese for CL 24, I had in mind as an example 19th and early 20th-century China and Manchuria. China in the past was ahead of the West technologically for hundreds of years, but eventually went stagnant and behind technologically, becoming a football for politics between other states.

I don't perceive the Mantorese as an aggressive species and while they had non-tactical warp a couple of hundreds years before Earth, it was for exploration purposes. None of those hulls are left by Y0.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 09:56 pm: Edit

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Terry, if the Federation takes Sovereignty seriously, why wouldn't they allow nonaggressive nonaligned members (i.e. not the Wasp People) to build whatever they want?

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By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 10:05 pm: Edit

ADM, that seems very plausible.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Mike West, I just read the Y3 Tellarites thread Mike Strain linked to up-thread. (I can't believe I didn't see it before.) I found your design for the Tellarite WCA so you can ignore my earlier question. It is sort of a 'Floating Fortress' type of design-I rather like it! Why so many shuttle craft, though? Delete a couple, or three, and tack on an RA photon. Otherwise, I very much like the weapons arrangement on that pig. (Pun intended)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Terry; Perhaps, however PD Feds indicates otherwise.
Excerpt from page 101 follows;

Yeney’vn
Yeney’vn is a Class-M planet orbiting a G2V star with a G4V companion at coordinates 3108... ...They possess non-tactical warp drive and have colonized four star systems in the immediate vicinity of their home system, but they have been prevented from expanding further by the Federation. The Yeney refuse to open diplomatic relations with the Federation...

So while the Federation my limit expansion, they appear to leave people alone as long as they stay at home.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 12:44 am: Edit

Dixon: the idea in that thread was that the Tellarites are slow to throw away 'tried and true' tech. Thus, they have minimal shields (to block transporters), but have advanced armor, because armor has always worked for them, and this new-fangled shield stuff is...new-fangled.

Transporters are 'new-fangled', are short-ranged (as in like range-1 or 2 at the time), and can be bounced by EW effects (not to mention sending you into an evil mirror universe...). Shuttles, on the other hand...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 01:32 am: Edit

Re: Fralli, et. al.

If a proto-empire in Federation space has non-tactical warp (or less) when they come into contact with the Federation, they are not going to waste the time, energy, and money to go convert their sublight ships to use tactical warp. Instead, they are just going to buy what they need from the Federation. Why? Because it is cheaper, faster, and way more efficient. And the Federation is going to encourage this (to the point of near mandate) because it keeps the world dependent on the Federation.

And if that proto-empire is actively *hostile* to the Federation, the Federation is going to simply not allow it tactical warp at all. To do otherwise would simply be stupid on the part of the Federation. (And, really, the quote ADM provided actually reinforces Terry's point, rather than counters it.)

As a result, given all of the history we have on the various Federation species, the Tellarites appear to be the only ones really "missing" at this time. None of the others seem to support the idea that they would have their own home-grown ships. (And the one potential, the Mantorese, just got shot to pieces by the guy who invented them.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 01:38 am: Edit

Dixon,

Mike Strain pretty much covered the reasons for the design points.

But really, the design is a thought exercise as much as anything else. The individual points and exact numbers can be tweaked as needed. It was the overall idea that we were working on. And the overall idea was that "unmaneuverable with spread weapons, plus heavy on armor and light on shield" ideas that you were mentioning.

The Q'Naabians are an example of the "unmaneuverable with spread weapons", but its shields and armor are normal. With the Tellarite concept you saw, we were trying to combine both ideas together.

BTW, I do think the first draft did have an RA photon (like I mentioned in this thread), but I must have removed it because I thought it had too many weapons. In the Early Years, the threshold for "too many weapons" is pretty low.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 03:26 am: Edit

I still like the idea of the Martians either adapting any Terran-hull ships they may have inherited (or purchased) at the time of independence into a distinct W-era National Guard; or perhaps for them to have gone so far as to have created their own home-grown designs outright (if only as a symbolic act, to both assert their distinctiveness from Earth and to showcase their emerging military-industrial complex.)

It would be a bit of a shame if they ended up using the exact same units as their Terran counterparts; or worse, if they never had a separate National Guard fleet prior to the G-series hand-me-downs of the Y120s.

(They are noted as having a well-funded modern-day National Guard in GURPS Federation; with specific notes about the quality of their ground forces and the tradition of always naming their flagship the Third of August, to honour the anniversary of the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies. That said, perhaps Mars could only start to afford, and support, such large-scale efforts by the Middle Years; though I'd imagine them chafing at the thought of having to ride the Terrans' coat-tails if that was the case.)

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 06:35 pm: Edit

I had always assumed that Mars in the Y-period was concentrating on building up the population base and beginning the terraforming process, not building a fleet.

Now, I assume that when they declared independence in Y36 and it looked like there might be a war, they probably cobbled a few ships together or, more likely, seized or captured any Earth ships docked to the orbital station. However, the standoff ended peacefully, and by the time you get into the tac warp era, Earth and Mars are quite friendly, have free trade, etc. I would imagine it would be more efficient at first to buy ships from Earth for national guard use until indigenous shipyards were ready, but even at that point it seems likely to me they would use the same or extremely similar designs.

Of course, that's just my opinion. SVC and SPP are the ones who matter.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 09:41 pm: Edit

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but even at that point it seems likely to me they would use the same or extremely similar designs.

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By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Where would the Martians get the fission-able material needed to make the drones. If there was an abundance sitting around on Mars, then Earth would have stayed with atomic missile/drone technology longer and would have suppressed the Martian rebellion more aggressively to maintain that source material.

If the material wasn't as abundant as that, then why would Mars keep to a technology that couldn't be sustainable from their own planetary sources. Even they would realize they couldn't really be independent if they had to continually import materials to sustain their weapons technology in order to maintain their independence.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 01:39 am: Edit

I wouldn't consider fissionables to be a good enough casus belli for the Earth government. The main reason why they held back during the Martian crisis was the fear of bringing their standing in the Federation to ruin; and since the treaty between Earth and Mars allowed for free trade between the two worlds, the kind of resources that Mars has on offer would be available to Terrans at a fair price anyway.

Plus, in the modern era at least, Mars would be as likely to sponsor its own colonies deeper in Federation space, though not on the same level that Earth does; so, its National Guard would be called upon to "show the flag" in a similar manner.

(Although, of course, the key is to clarify exactly when Mars really got its thing going as a major, or even a minor, industrial world in F&E terms.)


In terms of ship designs, I was thinking that there could be at least one or two smaller ship classes which the Martians could make a go at creating; perhaps at a suitable tipping point (say, in the Y90s or Y100s?) when the "Martian Mafia" started to really make strides towards becoming the military-industrial powerhouse it would gain such later notoreity for.

That said, they wouldn't necessarily build many of them; even one or two proof-of-concept ships would be interesting.

(To borrow one of Xander's earlier ideas, and to partially backpedal on my hitherto-stated preference for them to be used more for non-Alpha ideas than not, perhaps a couple of the House Hazat ships from A Call to Arms: Noble Armada might have a suitably... martial look to them?)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 02:04 am: Edit

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perhaps a couple of the House Hazat ships from A Call to Arms: Noble Armada might have a suitably... martial look to them?

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 02:12 am: Edit

I was thinking more of these designs being whole-cloth "warp-driven" hulls drawn up post-independence, as a "proof-of-concept" of what the Martian technology base could do.

(Perhaps even with an eye to market them as export models; akin to how the Terran-hull OCAs competed with the Constitution-class in the Y130s for Star Fleet's affections, perhaps Mars hoped to win the favour of, say, the early Federation Police?)

Although, I was under the impression that modern-day Mars builds plenty of starships; while they may have a name for their fighter wing, they would still be a major source in the UFP for military and civilian hulls. (Even if Earth has the primary yards supporting Star Fleet, there are plenty of other units with weapons on them that the "Martian Mafia" can work on; plus other branches of the Federation government they could sign contracts with.)

By Mark S. Hoyle (Resartus) on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 09:17 am: Edit

I would think once there was an abundance of space faring races/empires found outside the solar system, Mars/Earth conflict would change more to cooperation (like Germany/US vs USSR) ---

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Temporarily resurrecting the thread to point out the last fairly big write-up of some of what seems like it would fit in this product is this post.

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I would think once there was an abundance of space faring races/empires found outside the solar system, Mars/Earth conflict would change more to cooperation (like Germany/US vs USSR)

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 04:05 am: Edit

Something else that would be cool to see - forgot to mention this last time, but...

...Klingon warp-refits of Old Kings ships. The timeline given in the Y-era (and PD books) points to the Klingons using the Old Kings ships extensively during the 'sublight' period (Q-era) in their attempt to rebuild the Old Kings Empire, but...well, once they do start building their own, what would they do with those?

Sure, maybe it's possible that the Old Kings never had tactical warp...but it seems more probable that they did, and the Klingons of the Q-era just couldn't figure out how to work it (or how to repair or build those kind of engines). So once they have their own 'tactical warp refit' designs (W-era ships), they'd likely be able to apply that same knowledge to the Old Kings ships, too, and get their TacWarp engines online.

Module Y1 does say in the R-section for the Klinks that they definitely DID have Old Kings resources into the Y-era, including shipyards, and that it was the Tholian devastation of much of the Old Kings resources (guess the ships weren't that fast, after all?) that reduced the Klingon Empire to 'merely the equal of its neighbors'.

Would love to see those ships...I'd imagine lumbering monstrosities big enough to fire the imagine of generations of Klingons into obsessing over building the biggest ships they could (starting with the failed B4, and resulting in the B10).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 11:03 am: Edit

The raid which wrecked the Old King yard was said to have been launched by the Kzintis, not the Tholians.

(Given the technology limits of the era, exactly how the Kzintis managed to pull off such a feat could be a neat story in and of itself.)


PD Klingons seems to imply that the Old Kings were at TL12 or beyond when they first arrived at Klinshai; I get the impression that the Spirit Kings were similarly ahead of the Hydrans at the time of their own first contact. (That discrepancy could help explain why the Spirit Kings felt safe enough to allow the Hydrans to use ships powered with non-tactical warp drive to travel out into space.)


Although, that might lead to another question; what did the Spirit King ships look like?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 02:43 pm: Edit

There is a rather huge question on the Old Kings that I am still waiting for a good explanation on. That being that the Klingons had access to a full Old Kings shipyard. They had access to full-on Old Kings starships. Yet that only gave them non-tactical warp and they had to figure out tactical warp on their own.

This all begs the question of how advanced the Old Kings really were. They were advanced enough to fight very effectively against some nasty opponents. But the indirect implication is that they only had non-tactical warp, or the Klingons really would have been able to conquer everyone.

I see a lot of assumptions being made on all sides of this issue, but no real evidence or story behind it. I think such an explanation of how it fits together would be a big help.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I guess it depends on what the Old Kings stripped from their shipyards before they left...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Perhaps the yard was a derelict, which required the Klingons to re-furnish it as they went? So that while the basic structure of the yards were still present, the actual tools of construction, and the computer programs needed to operate them, had to be re-installed from scratch. Thus the only ships the Klingons could use it to build were ones they were already capable of fielding beforehand. (Especially if the Old Kings wiped the computer cores before departing.)

Or, perhaps the yard had intentionally been left there by the Old Kings; perhaps with the long-term goal of handing it over to whichever subject species it may have felt willing to uplift (in the manner that the Spirit Kings did with the Hydrans).


But then, the question would be; were the fleet yards the Hydrans had prior to the first conquest the same ones the Spirit Kings had left them; or did the Hydrans have to replace them with new yards once they managed to develop tactical warp drive?


And, I guess one other question might be; just what kind of pace did the various Kings expect the younger realms to advance their technology bases?

Over in Triangulum, the Helgardians signed a series of Warp Pacts with emerging planets; handing over a series of Y-era frigate nacelles, as well as the technical expertise needed to duplicate them. From the Helgardian perspective, there was no immediate danger from these deals; they expected the younger species to have the same (slow) technological development curve that they themselves had progressed through. As a result, they were in for a shock when the young realms managed to build bigger engines capable of driving larger and more powerful ship classes around; and by Y120, when the young planets made the leap to TL12 warp drive, the Helgardians themselves were forced to accelerate their own pace of research and development.

It could be that the various Kings had a similar mindset; not expecting their subject planets as being capable of catching up to their own level of technology at anything like a dangerous pace.

But then, I guess the big difference there is that, unlike the "Kings" (but like the Ancient Ones who acted as a precursor species to M33's Imperium and Frigians) the Helgardians were not going anywhere; their more advanced (and more powerful) ships were encountered regularly, providing the kind of active benchmark that no-one (save perhaps for the Jindarians) would have provided for the generations of Klingon and Hydran engineers working on establishing their species' influence on the Alpha Octant stage.