Shawn,

Missing

What about X-ships? I note you include PFs/PF tenders, so you are clearly contemplating the possibility of a campaign extending into that era.

What about tugs/LTTs/etc.? An empire needs a way to establish new colonies or bases, and to upgrade existing ones. I would argue that Battle Tugs and similar combat-oriented versions are not actually necessary. They are "nice to have" but you can get along without them. But the basic "logistical" tug functions? You can't get along without those.

Not Required

I would argue that Police Ships are not necessary. We could certainly hypothesize an empire that used the same ship as both their "military" frigate and their basic police ship. I can't think of any SFB empire that actually does this. But that doesn't mean that none ever would.

I'm not convinced Fighters/Carriers/Escorts and PFs/PF tenders are actually necessary. The Feds don't have the latter. Certainly they are "nice to have", and I personally think the Feds made a mistake in not deploying PFS. But what an empire really needs is a way to counter the other side's fighters and PFs, if the other side deploys them. Deploying fighters and PFs of your own is a convenient way of doing that, but not the only possible way.

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 04:44 am: Edit

Only thing actually required is access to normal fleet units FFs through CAs. Now dedicated command units like CCs,CCHs,BCHs, DNs and maybe BBs are nice but not absolute necessary. Same is true of Scouts but they are by far the easiest first step.

A base system is nice if you are going into economics and repair but can easily be abstracted out. Include in this category SAMs or CMPs through Stellar Fortresses as well as Ground Bases.

If you really want to get into the economic side you could but don't need. Cargo/convoy/fast supply ship, tugs and repair ships and fleet repair docks, maybe if you want dedicated raiders aka Fast Ships and XShips.

Mine Warfare also not necessary but can be fun or a nightmare depending on you level of detail. The Simplist is just use Defense Satellite and call it a day. If you have to have mines you will need minesweepers and layers.

Fighters an Gunboats not really need but like mines have their uses and quirks. Fun but not necessary.

The biggest part of a campaign is building and repairing ships. F&E Basic abstracts this by giving you a build list. You may want to actually have ship yards and slips.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Roms use the Snipe as a frigate & Pol IIRC

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Gorn frigate is their POL.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Snipe-P is a Snipe-A without a cloak.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 10:26 pm: Edit

The Kzinti POL is also a modified FF ...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, December 04, 2022 - 10:48 pm: Edit

I stand corrected. It seems several empires use modified versions of their frigate as the POL. This does convince me even more that POLs per se are not really necessary for an empire to be "campaign complete". All empires do need ships to perform "police functions" but some use specific police ships while others use modified versions of small military vessels.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 10:02 am: Edit

In terms of what constitutes "campaign compatibility", the answer depends to a significant extent on whether or not the empire in question is intended to operate in the Alpha Octant or not.

In order to illustrate this, I find it useful to compare SFB Module C6 to Module C5.

-----

Module C6 provides the "lost empire" Paravians and Carnivons with a broad range of "modern" (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12) ships, attrition units, and support units, covering the Middle Years through to the onset of Interceptors and fast patrol ships.

But then, this range was shaped by the various C-, J-, R- and other modules which have provided equivalent unit types to (most) other Alpha Octant empires. For example: most Alpha empires have heavy war destroyers, fast cruisers, police flagships, bombers, workboats, survey fast patrol ships, and so on and so forth... Thus, it was deemed necessary to give these unit types to the Paravians and Carnivons to match.

Plus, both empires are able to lean upon the "generic" range of Alpha Octant base and freighter SSDs which exist in print elsewhere. Despite how Shapeways has allowed for empire-specific miniatures for such things, the underlying rules and SSDs remain quite uniform from one Alpha empire to the next. So, while the C6 rulebook notes in detail how to distinguish a Paravian starbase, a Carnivon Prime Corvette, or an Orion Cartel's adjusted operating zones in a given "lost empire" timeline, the C6 SSD book was able to skip including actual "R1" SSDs to cover such units.

Further, with the kind of template provided in Module M, it was possible to cover battalion organizations, Prime Team operations, and other material of that sort. (Which might facilitate a "lost empires" article for Star Fleet Marines one day, perhaps.)

Although, even Module C6 does not cover everything: there is still plenty of room for a would-be "Module C6R" further down the line. But, for now, there is more than enough in C6 itself to bring either "lost empire" to an Alpha Octant campaign.

-----

Module C5, on the other hand, has a lot more it has to do in some ways. Not just in terms of bringing the three Magellanic Powers up to functional degree of campaign compatibility in one go, but also in terms of setting the ground (or would that be space?) rules for what constitutes "campaign compatibility" out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, relative to the Alpha Octant.

For one thing: not only do the "generic" bases and support units not exist in the LMC - save perhaps for those unit types used by the Jindarians of the Cloud - prior to Operation Unity; the "standard" logistical units used by the Baduvai and Eneen in the "main" area of the LMC developed in isolation from those established by the Maghadim within the Core region. So while Module C5 includes separate design lineages for Baduvai and Eneen base stations, "civilian" tugs, and other such units, the Maghadim have their own equivalent support units which they developed independently.

For another thing: many of the unit types and "mission variants" which have over time seeped into the fleets of the Alpha Octant either do not exist in the LMC, or (if they do) manifest quite differently. For example, there are as yet no "fast" ships among the Module C5 empires; it might well be that such engine technology simply does not exist for the Magellanic empires. Similarly, there are no HDWs in the LMC, at least not prior to Operation Unity - and no guarantee at this time whether or not they'd bother to develop such technology in the post-Unity era.

Further, since the Magellanic empires have no Size Class 2 units, and are noted as being heavily reliant on Size Class 4 warships, their cruisers have much fewer "mission variants" than their Alpha Octant counterparts. Which has the side benefit on cutting down on the number of Size Class 3 SSDs which need to be printed in order to bring these empires into a player campaign.

Of course, there is still enough room for more LMC material in a would-be "Module C5R". Although I might argue that it would need the "future history" of Module X2 to be printed before it can adequately account for the post-Unity era in the appropriate detail.

-----

So, if one was to consider what a given empire - Alpha or non-Alpha - might need in order to be considered "campaign compatible", the answer might depend greatly on where - and against whom - said empires are to be expected to, well... campaign.

Which, alas, is still an ongoing issue for the empires of the Omega Octant, as none of those are "campaign compatible" as of yet.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 10:58 am: Edit

Are any of the ships in R9 non-conjectural? I see the ISC CAT listed on the master ship chart as LPW. Is it worth getting R9 if I never want to use conjectural ships?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Ginger, some campaigns will use conjectural ships. Not many, but some.

Also, some of the ships there, notably ships like bombardment carriers/PFTs (they're a combination of carrier or PFT with a Type-IIIXX Drone Bombardment specialist) are as realistic as having everyone make SCSes.

I will, however, admit that R9 is basically in the third-to-last place in my order of favorite to least favorite SFB products, only ahead of the two X-era products.

BUT that doesn't answer your question.

I pulled out and started flipping through the first pages. There were three unique Federation ships and two Klingon ship types with two units each among the first couple pages, so there are some, but VERY few.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Thanks. I'll take it off of my "Don't Care" list and bump it up to "Barely Care."

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 03:54 pm: Edit

R9, huh?

There are some potentially useful ones in there, depending on your interests:
- Do you want Alliance (Fed, Hydran, Horn, Kzinti) maulers?
- Do you want Romulan Hawk tugs?
- Do you want Tholian tugs? Tholian survey ship?
- Do you want a Seltorian tug? Seltorian survey ship?
- Do you want an Orion tug? Orion mauler?
- Do you want scout heavy fighter carriers? (Basically the proto PFTs.)
- Do you want a CVA or SCS carrier group on a cruiser hull? For all the major empires?
- Do you want dreadnought maulers for the Coalition? (Since they gave the Alliance maulers, that means the Coalition has to MORE MAULER!)

If any of that is of interest to you, then get it. Those entries are pretty good and useful depending on what type of campaign you want to run, and they help give minor empires some utility ships (tugs and survey ships) that they current don't have because they historically didn't need them.

Finally, just for fun, the ships I hate:
- The X-tech DNL ships. These aren't even "conjectural". They are "impossible". I thought "impossible" ships go in SSJ, not full R-modules.
- Medium dreadnoughts. Let's see ... take a fast DNL, then bolt on just enough crap that they stop being fast, but still aren't any better than a "real" dreadnought. Why? You've just ruined what makes the base ship fun and made them pointless. Just use a real dreadnought.
- War dreadnoughts. I won't say I actually "hate" these, but they are ugly as sin and definitely enter that "why" territory. I guess every empire needs an SSD (and corresponding miniature) that makes your eyes hurt.
- Federation Strike Cruiser. My "favorite". I hate this ship with the passion of a thousand suns. This ship is an abomination. I remain stunned it was ever published.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Are any of those bullet point ships non-conjectural?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 04:59 pm: Edit

|Note that Omega empires do not fit into campaigns very well, as many ship classes are missing, there's not much in the way of non combatants, and bases are almost non existant (anything with phaser 4 equivalents does not exist, for example).

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Quick point on my "rant" on the "ships I hate":

They are ships *I* don't like. If you like them, great! More power to you! You have ships you like, and that is important for the game.

I am just saying that *I* don't like them. Not that they shouldn't exist. Well, except for the CS. But even then, it does exist, so it's too late for that. I am just opinion-izing, not stating fact or truth.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Well, just going through them:
- Do you want Alliance (Fed, Hydran, Horn, Kzinti) maulers? CONJECTURAL
- Do you want Romulan Hawk tugs? CAMPAIGN CONJECTURAL
- Do you want Tholian tugs? Tholian survey ship? CAMPAIGN CONJECTURAL
- Do you want a Seltorian tug? Seltorian survey ship? CAMPAIGN CONJECTURAL
- Do you want an Orion tug? Orion mauler? CAMPAIGN CONJECTURAL
- Do you want scout heavy fighter carriers? (Basically the proto-PFTs.) Made a mistake. The main scout heavy fighter carriers are in J2. These are the NCA versions of those scout heavy fighter carriers. The Fed and Kzinti are "real". The Klingon and Romulan are Unbuilt Variant. This one is all over the map.
- Do you want a CVA or SCS carrier group on a cruiser hull? For all the major empires? Actually, this is just the SCS carrier group. The CVA version is in J2, also. Maybe this is just for the Feds? (I thought it was more.) CONJECTURAL anyway.
- Do you want dreadnought maulers for the Coalition? (Since they gave the Alliance maulers, that means the Coalition has to MORE MAULER!) Unbuilt Variant and CONJECTURAL.

- Feds get a drone bombardment F-111 carrier and the Klingons get a drone bombardment PFT. Both are Unbuilt Variants.
- The medium dreadnoughts and war dreadnoughts are Unbuilt Variants.
- The X-tech DNLs are IMPOSSIBLE. (Again, isn't that SSJ material?)
- F-111 and PFT versions of National Guard ships. (Didn't check. Don't care.)

Then there are some just completely rando ships:
- Fed CS - Actually built
- Gorn Double-Wing Destroyer - Actually built
- Gorn DLF - DNL with an extra Pl-F because the base DNL armament is so pathetic. - Unbuilt Variant.
- Lyrans get a DCS - Actually built
- Lyran CAL - DD/CW sides with a DN center hull - One actually built! (Probably with the leftover center hull that was originally the DND from R5.)
- Orions and WYN get a DNH and DNL. Obviously CONJECTURAL.
- ISC get a CW and DW. Actually built.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Thanks

By Eric Silverman (Ericsilverman) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 06:41 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

If you like them, great! More power to you! You have ships you like, and that is important for the game.

---

By Joseph Jackson (Bonneville) on Monday, December 05, 2022 - 10:44 pm: Edit

I've got the hots for the gunfighter frigates from CL #28. I don't know if they are published elsewhere, but I always try to squeeze one into a fleet action (usually without success). Also, they are perfect for a quick showdown at high noon.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Tuesday, December 06, 2022 - 08:40 am: Edit

This might just be my taste, but I love ugly ships, especially when they are war constructions.

Deckhouse destroyers?
Medium dreadnoughts?
Fed police ships with junk tacked on the front?
5/6 movement cost lunacy?
Lyran mix and match cruisers?
Cygnan early-in-the-middle years stuff?
Fralli anything?

I can't get enough. The uglier the better.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 06, 2022 - 10:24 am: Edit

When the Andromedan invasion brought the Inter-Stellar Concordium Pacification campaign to a dramatic end, what remained of their fleet was divided into two categories: those operating in what remained of ISC home territory, and those left stuck in a series of semi-isolated cantonments elsewhere across the former Pacification cordons.

For the "at-home" ISC, a new sense of urgency led them to start fielding "war" classes, such as Module R9's CW and DW, as fast as they could build or convert them. Whereas out in the cantonments, a series of "system" ships, such as the NDD and NFF in Module R11, were converted in an effort to increase their available firepower.

So, it makes more sense for the Concordium at this time to consider converting a light dreadnought into a medium dreadnought (particularly if a DNL happened to be stuck out in one of the cantonments), and/or to field a war dreadnought as an emergency measure.

Further, with the onset of the "Mapsheet P" timelines in Module C6, it makes sense for the ISC in such timelines to field "war" classes at the same time as their Romulan and Paravian enemies - though I'd argue that, with no Pacification possible, there likely wouldn't be any of the "system" hulls of the kind seen in the "standard" timeline.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, December 08, 2022 - 05:41 pm: Edit

(Also posted over in the Player Campaigns section)

There is a new campaign starting up and we're looking for players. We have 3 so far and can take up to 3 more. The link to the full rules is below. Here are the big points:

* Y172 for the starting year
* Travel around the map to find other fleets
* Each empire has two and only two borders to fight for.
* Command ratings are halved and there are no starbases so fleets will be on the small side (6 ships max).
* Battles can be fought in person or online over SFBOL. Or really any other method you and your opponent can agree on.

Come join the carnage!

The rules (pdf)

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 12, 2022 - 10:24 am: Edit

Are the Module W maps and/or the various F&E maps a good size to accommodate large SFB miniatures?

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, December 12, 2022 - 02:21 pm: Edit

I found the 7000 scale Shapeways minis to be a decent fit on an F&E map. For the Klingons, the D5 and F5 7000 scale make pretty good fleet markers.

--Mike

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 13, 2022 - 02:30 am: Edit

The Module W maps are made for miniatures but they are a compromise between "big enough to fit any ship in the hex" and "would actually fit on a ping-pong table."

And I don't think you can get two ships of any size into one hex.