Archive through May 02, 2007
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS:
F&E Future Products (Far Term):
F&E Nebulous Operations:
Operational Speed 5 ships:
Archive through May 02, 2007
Lots of interesting discussion. Whatever function ADB uses to define 'warp factors' is fine with me.
Bottom line: Operational Speed 5 Ships sound great regardless of exactly what warp factor Operational Speed 5 actually is.
I am all in favor of more variance in operational movement capabilities.
Isn't an F&E hex 1000pc? That means that 2 hexes per 6 mo is (taking the 1pc = 3.2ly approximation that seems to be used here) 4*3200 = 12,800ly/yr = 12,800c (SFB speed 12,800).
That's really neither here nor there, though (just a question of coefficient, not equation form) -- the numbers you've posted indicate that F&E speed is pretty clearly a linear function of SFB speed, which is itself a simple cubic function of warp factor. I'm not clear, then, how this differs from the cubic function others have mentioned, except the coefficient.
Thanasis - you've doubled the hex, it's 500pc per hex...
thanasis, of all the times those speeds have been posted you are the first to catch on to that 
as stewart states you doubled the size of the hex.
after you figure the coefficient go ahead and calculate other warp factors and you will see that there really isn't many other speeds that fit the required numbers better. except for fast warp we stuck to .5 warp resolution and even for fast we only went down to .25 warp (and speed 5 will require the same .25 resolution)
also when in doubt we went with a slightly higher true speed to give ships time to move the required distance and still have time to fight/retreat/etc
I thought sublight ships just moved 1 hex in F&E?
Nope - "sublight" ships can still use strategic warp, simply not tactical warp. It's how the romulans got an empire.
Impulse can generate a non-tactical warp field.
Frazikar/Dlang: OK, 500pc... For some reason I've had 1000pc in my head for the last decade...
Dlang: You posted it as a something of a challenge, so when the simple cube function was not that close, I was searching for more complicated functions... But things all make sense now
Anyway, given that the NTW field comes from impulse power, does that mean that a ship which has lost all impulse power can no longer move strategically, or that impulse or warp engines can power the NTW drive? (Ships seem to lose all their impulse power long before they lose all warp power...)
I believe that technicly you need impulse power to run the strategic warp drives, but since you only need one point of power it's almost certinly going to be available to you after damage control efforts.
Way back in the '70s there was some discussions among Trek fans that warp drives provided a hole in space and impulse engines pushed the ship into that hole with in the warp bubble. To accelerate into warp you had to be moving at some level of impulse speed.
But this gets away from the Threads main topic. Shouldn't we be talking about what ships might be good candidates for Move 5?
This is probably obtuse, but lets see about older dreadnoughts.
The Klingon C4 moves 4, and enters service Y92.
The Klingon C6 moves 6, and enters service c. Y140.
Was there a C4B in between these two flagship classes? Would a C4B move 5 or 6? I ask this because a C4B would not technically be a MY-ship, but an upgraded EY ship. (one of the few that I can think of outside of National Guard ships)
In the Federation example:
The Fed YDN moves 4, and enters service Y100.
The Fed DN moves 6, and enters service Y148.
Was there a Fed YDNB? ...or did YDNs lead the MY fleets until Y148. (This being the point, I suppose)
C4B sounds familiar; is that something slated for Y2? It would make sense that it would be a speed-5 ship... but I've never seen as SSD for it. I suppose if its modernization was akin to the NG ships', it would be 5, but if it got 45 warp as part of the process, it should probably be assumed to have gotten strat speed 6 as well.
I do not find C4B or YDNB amongst the list of proposed ships for Y2. The reason for this is probably that the C4B/YDNB would be EY types that were upgraded to serve in the MY era (like NG). If such things exist, they did not serve during the Early years, per se.
The idea of a C4B/YDNB is born of the need for a flagship class to serve between the time that MY ships are introduced and the time that the DNE's enter service. It is about a 20 year period or so. The 2nd Fed-Kzinti War falls during this period, for example.
This is a bit obscure, I know, but I brought it up because C4B/YDNB would be EY upgrades just like NG ships. Hence, they are candidates for an operational movement of 5.
The Klingon C4B appeared in Captain's Log #20, page 108. It is labeled as a "Middle Years Dreadnought" and its description is consistent with treating as a NG ship.
Next possible ship with 5 hex movement: The Old Cruiser specified under Neutral Planet Defenses (StratOps) is probably of an upgraded EY design. I would suggest that these ships also have a movement of 5.
I add it to the list for SVC to consider:
==YDNB/C4B types
==Neutral Planet 'Old Cruiser' types
==Unrefitted Romulan warp conversions (SN, BH, WE, 3FE, FAL, VUL) but not (SNB, KE, etc).
Steverossi: The VUL as represented in F&E is actually the KVL I believe, which is the fully modernized (including IIRC full-size warp engines) version. F&E doesn't include the WVL, which would be the speed-5 version (if WE/SN/etc. get classed as speed 5). VUL, technically speaking, is the sublight/NTW version.
VUL should not be move 5. It can maintain SFB speed 31 with little difficulty.
WE and all variants (except KE) should be speed 5.
BH and all variants should be speed 6. This ship can maintain SFB speed 30.
SN and all variants (including the POL, PV, and SNB) should be speed 5. This ship can barely power life-support. SNB makes this worse by adding weapons without adding power. The SN in F&E is very much out of what with its SFB counterpart. At best is should be a 3/1 unit, SNB not in the game at all, and a "King Snipe" (which I have an SSD for J) added as a 4/2 unit. But I digress...42
Zathras: I believe the SNB goes up to 8 warp, so it can in principle do tac speed 31 (move cost 1/4). (For noncombat movement, it can in practice do speed 30 with passive fire control and minimum shields.) Given that -- and despite sucking -- it should be considered in line with the KE and KVL.
The true VUL (not represented in F&E) should be speed-3 (NTW only), but the KVL (which F&E calls VUL) is speed 6.
BH is a border case. It belongs to the first generation with the WVL, WE, and SNA, and does not have `proper' warp engines -- only 14 warp, not the 15-18 normal for a DD. Since strat speed is not going to be tied to tac speed (e.g., a Fed BT is slower tactically than a WE, but still moves 6 in F&E), it might make more sense to divide the Roms by generation instead of strictly by how many warp boxes there are. By YIS the BH is first warp generation; there just isn't a `king' version (unless there's an old playtest version I don't remember...).
The SNB is the `king' snipe: It already has 2xPL-F, extra phasers, and warp engines appropriate to a GW-era MC1/4 ship. It just sucks. (What it needs is impulse or APR so it can use its warp for movement, not a `king' upgrade which it already has...)
It appears you are right... the SNB does have 8 pts of warp.
I would also be inclined to accept a slower BH for simplicity's sake.42
There is a BHB that was published in Star Fleet Times 34 (along with 'king' upgraded versions of the Falcon and Scout Eagle). BHB is 100 BPV according to my crib notes vs. the 85 for the BH. I don't have the SSD handy, but I think the B refit only adds on F torp instead of the typical two found on other King upgrades.
SFT #34 is actually on ADB's site: Link
Direct link to the BHB: Link
SFT #34 actually has several of my favorite non-published Romulan ships (I'm partial to the older ships, so that might be part of it):
The BEV was finally put in J2, but the HFA and HSC are great, while the BHB and SNC are interesting options.42
SFT 34... I thought I remembered a SNC somewhere... I'd forgotten about the BHB...
All this is interesting, but has gotten us a bit away from the point. Whether or not a given specific ship is one of the `slow' Roms or not aside, should those ships have F&E speed 5? I think yes, SVC seems to like the idea... I'm just surprised we haven't heard screams from the Roms. No Romophiles here? Or is this just such an obvious idea that nobody objects?
Romophile here... not objecting.
I all ready posted my objection earlier. The Rom are not using older warp designs they are using Klingon MY warp designs and should not have the Eagle, Hawk, Snipe, or Vulture penalized for range.
I could be entirely wrong, but way back where, weren't all CW intended to be range 5?
My fuzzy memory tells me that that was supposed to be one of the tradoffs. Equal firepower (nearly) to a CA, but shorter operational range and more brittle (less damage to destroy)